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Forum:Total Known Bounty
* -From the first ▲ to the last ▲ indicates that the conversation comes directly from the talk page of the Bonney Pirates. - ▲ ---- Total bounty Since we don't know if Bonney is the only member in the crew who has bounty the correct variant is the second ("at least 140,000,000"). Ruxax 12:52, March 5, 2011 (UTC) :I'm in agreement. We know they have at least that amount because of the captain, that is a correct amount. One-Winged Hawk 13:20, March 5, 2011 (UTC) The same situation is, of course, with Heart Pirates, Hawkins Pirates, On Air Pirates, Fallen Monk Pirates, Firetank Pirates, Drake Pirates. Ruxax 15:33, March 5, 2011 (UTC) Wrong. It is speculation to assume somebody else has a bounty. Until it is confirmed you are wrong to put at least in. SeaTerror 16:41, March 5, 2011 (UTC) "Total bounty: 140,000,000" assumes that nobody except Bonney has bounty. "Total bounty is at least 140,000,000" doesn't assume anything. It is true in both cases. So, the first variant is a speculation. The second is not. Ruxax 16:48, March 5, 2011 (UTC) I agree. It's best to leave it open and add "at least" to Bonney, the rest of the supernovas, and all pirate crews with known bounties for that matter. 16:54, March 5, 2011 (UTC) Yes it "Somebody else in the crew has bounty" Prove it. That is pure speculation. Nice try. SeaTerror 17:01, March 5, 2011 (UTC) Prove they don't have a bounty. "At least" leaves it open-ended, allowing for the possibility that at least one other crew member has a bounty. We'd be speculating if we ruled it out as a possibility by saying that only Bonney has a bounty. 17:13, March 5, 2011 (UTC) Buren of proof is on the people speculating, Oda. Its speculation saying there might be another bounty. SeaTerror 17:16, March 5, 2011 (UTC) :You have to prove that Bonney is the only person that has bounty! Learn to read and to use logic. Ruxax 17:53, March 5, 2011 (UTC) No that would be you. You are using speculation that other crew members have bounties. Prove it. They do not have bounties until said so by Oda. Or I guess you want to claim to be Oda. SeaTerror 18:01, March 5, 2011 (UTC) :I repeat once again: when you don't use "at least" you have to prove that other members don't have bounties. We don't know if they have bounties or not. So you are wrong. :When one uses "at least" there is no need to prove anything. The phrase "Total bounty is at least 140,000,000." is true either if other members have bounties or not, it is true in both cases! Ruxax 18:08, March 5, 2011 (UTC) It is speculation to assume they have bounties. It isn't true until confirmed in the manga. SeaTerror 18:25, March 5, 2011 (UTC) Man, this is seriously endless!!! Here: ---- Quick Poll (Closed, below the new one) Please sign your name under the topic you vote for. Only registered users with at least 150 edits may vote. 1.) Use "at least" * 17:26, March 5, 2011 (UTC) * 17:28, March 5, 2011 (UTC) *Pandawarrior 17:42, March 5, 2011 (UTC) *Ruxax 17:53, March 5, 2011 (UTC) * or Total Bounty, either one. *[[User:Leviathan_89|''leviathan_89]] 21:42, March 6, 2011 (UTC) or something similar like "min". * 05:49, March 8, 2011 (UTC) 2.) Don't use "at least" * SeaTerror 17:27, March 5, 2011 (UTC) * Yatanogarasu 18:31, March 5, 2011 (UTC) 3.) Change "Total Bounty" in infobox to "Total Bounty Known" * 18:35, March 5, 2011 (UTC) * Make it Total Known Bounty (sounds better). 18:37, March 5, 2011 (UTC) * This is awesome 18:52, March 5, 2011 (UTC) * "Total known bounty" is properly safer. One-Winged Hawk 21:07, March 5, 2011 (UTC) *Kaizoku-Hime 21:37, March 5, 2011 (UTC) * Yatanogarasu 04:22, March 6, 2011 (UTC) * Whiskey 13:17, March 9, 2011 (UTC) ---- 17:26, March 5, 2011 (UTC) 'Poll Talk' :When someone is being a jackass over a simple matter and refuses to see reason, polls aren't really needed. At most, the reasons for using "At least" are more convincing than what's been replied against. 17:34, March 5, 2011 (UTC) Apparently saying something is speculation is being a jackass. I guess most editors on this wikia were jackasses at some point. 17:35, March 5, 2011 (UTC) Woah, chill guys, 203.177.74.140 I know you don't enjoy ST much but he is useful at times too, and ST, don't get too hot over this guy, he/she's just getting used to stuff. 17:39, March 5, 2011 (UTC) :@SeaTerror Saying something is speculation doesn't make a person a jackass. Refusing to see reason in an otherwise simple situation and creating constant edit wars however does. :@JapaneseOPfan It is hard not to get angry at this guy based on his insulting comments and actions. His reply to my comment in fact not only insults me but also, unintentional or not, every other contributor. This includes you my friend. 17:47, March 5, 2011 (UTC) And this is why people need to get sarcasm. SeaTerror 17:59, March 5, 2011 (UTC) It's hard to get written sarcasm. Sarcasm is meant to be portrayed through verbal queues, meaning it's auditory, not typing. 18:05, March 5, 2011 (UTC) I can usually tell when somebody is being sarcastic on the internet. Though there's also a forum of sarcasm where people make it sound like they aren't being sarcastic but they are. SeaTerror 18:07, March 5, 2011 (UTC) I somehow fail to spot insults? Maybe I'm just to thick-skinned, but this isn't really something to get mad over... Anyway, I don't like these options... both are speculative. The first implies that there is more, the second implies it is a set amount. I wouldn't use words at all, but this sign here: ≤ ( = or < ). Best solution imho 18:13, March 5, 2011 (UTC) That would be the same thing as saying at least, only using symbols, and then we'd be back to square one. 18:17, March 5, 2011 (UTC) We're getting off topic. The point of this quick poll is to make sure what the community wants. So far, I see the first option winning, and so SeaTerror, please do not undo Ruxax's edits unless the votes suddenly get overturned. 18:21, March 5, 2011 (UTC) Ehm, what is offtopic about my suggestion? Anyway, "at least" sounds more suggestive tho. It's like I would say: The Bonney pirates have a bounty of 140.000.000, '''at least!' On the other hand, the symbol is neutral, it is "sterile". 140.000.000 ≤ (point.) Just a suggestion. 18:27, March 5, 2011 (UTC) It is a quick poll. Nobody said the poll was official. SeaTerror 18:29, March 5, 2011 (UTC) (Editing conflict) Here's a new suggestion: changing the "Total Bounty" in the infobox to "Total Known Bounties" or something like that. Yatanogarasu 18:31, March 5, 2011 (UTC) Lol Yatan, I was just about to say that!! 18:33, March 5, 2011 (UTC) This should have been put in the forums instead. SeaTerror 18:37, March 5, 2011 (UTC) Then move it! I don't know how to... 18:39, March 5, 2011 (UTC) Anyway, seems like now that I've added it, option 3 is starting to gain popularity. The problem is: #Will there be 2 separate Charbox templates; one with "Total known" and 1 with just "Total" or #Just 1 Charbox is fine, it's a pain to make 2. Option 1 is like, since we know for sure some total bounties, but for some crews we don't so... and Option 2 is self explanitory. Which is better?? 18:59, March 5, 2011 (UTC) @ Jinbe: ≤ just means "at least". Ruxax 19:27, March 5, 2011 (UTC) ---- This is ridiculous. I don't understand why we can't just keep using "At least". It's direct, to the point, and most of the Pirate crews have been using it. Here, if it's really so hard to understand I'll just link to the damn dictionary. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/at%20least And for those who are too lazy to click a link I'm copy and pasting from The Merriam-Webster Dictionary: 2Least noun Definition of LEAST :one that is least — at least :1: at the minimum :2: in any case As in, The Bonney Pirates have ''at least ''a total bounty of 140,000,000. Why is this so difficult to understand? Haha YD don't worry we're holding a vote right now to determine this stuff. I'll just tell you that the newest topic on this page is the voting. Sorry for the confusing order. Anyway, can you vote above as well? thanks. 03:36, March 6, 2011 (UTC) I have to agree with Yazzy here. This is getting retardedly out of hand. There never was a problem with using at least to begin with, yet here we are, knee-deep in shit. The definition stands. At least is ok to use. Now, let's stop going round and round in this crapstorm and continue doing things as we've always done them. 03:57, March 6, 2011 (UTC) For those of you who have no idea what happened to start this crap: Well you see, it all started with Yatano deleting the atleast. Ruxax didn't agree so he undid those edits and that was okay but.. SeaTerror got suddenly super devoted into undoing Ruxax's edits and here starts the endless edit war between Ruxax and SeaTerror that lasted for about what, an hour and a half? It got so annoying to me that I just HAD to butt in and stop these guys. There was a talk, and right when everything was about settled, SeaTerror erased all the atleasts again ''and I couldn't bring myself to undo those again, so I started the poll. and here we are now. So that sums it all up. Please do not hate me for making you sound evil, SeaTerror, but it's the truth. 04:19, March 6, 2011 (UTC) Hmm! It was me who added the atleast on all the SNs' pages , well I never thought it would go this far ! I should have talked about it first , and i dont see any problem in the "atleast" stuff , let it stay ! 05:56, March 8, 2011 (UTC) Ahem, looks like changing the template to "total known bounty" won by one vote against "at least". Before any official changes, any objections or quick voting? The voting will end tomorrow. 00:17, March 9, 2011 (UTC) Erm... Can I point out, this need to all be transferred to the forum because thats where this belongs. Otherwise, this makes our forums reduntant amongst other issues. Like being able to find really important poles when you need them to check stuff. Can someone please put this where it should be and lets don't do this again. -_-' One-Winged Hawk 01:40, March 9, 2011 (UTC) Yeah I think that's been mentioned earlier too. do I just make a completely new forum, or do I copy/paste this? is it possible to literally move the whol :C+ P, then link from here to the new forum.So long as you edit the whole page to get the C + P and link to the forum it was put in, its okay. :-) One-Winged Hawk 02:08, March 9, 2011 (UTC) : :I'll do it, but last time I did so, all our sigs turned into code which was pretty wacky (and the reason why I quit), so don't blame me if it happens again XP I'll try. 02:10, March 9, 2011 (UTC) ---- ▲ -And Here Begins the actual forum discussion. - Forum Discussion Well well, now that I have finally turned this into a forum, we can start a formal conversation. 02:27, March 9, 2011 (UTC) Voting Round II ''Please sign your name under the topic you want to re-vote for. Only registered users with at least 150 edits may vote. The vote will end on 0:00 of March 19th in terms of Wikia time. Any votes after that will be immediately erased. 1.) Use "at least" * 05:01, March 9, 2011 (UTC) *Pandawarrior 12:43, March 9, 2011 (UTC) *[[User:Leviathan_89|''leviathan_89]] 16:50, March 9, 2011 (UTC) * 06:40, March 10, 2011 (UTC) *Yountoryuu 10:01, March 10, 2011 (UTC) *Ruxax 16:16, March 14, 2011 (UTC) *This or a combination; "Total known bounty at least". One-Winged Hawk 17:48, March 17, 2011 (UTC) 2.) Don't use "at least" * 3.) Change "Total Bounty" in infobox to "Total Bounty Known" * 02:28, March 9, 2011 (UTC) *"Total Known Bounty"Yatanogarasu 05:52, March 9, 2011 (UTC) *"Total Known Bounty" 海賊姫 06:00, March 9, 2011 (UTC) *"Total Known Bounty" 12:37, March 9, 2011 (UTC) *"Total Known Bounty"Whiskey 07:00, March 10, 2011 (UTC) *"Total Known Bounty" Post-Voting Opinions Yeah, I think "Total Bounty Known" is a more accurate way of describing that section. "At least" seems too vague and borderlines on speculation. Yatanogarasu 05:52, March 9, 2011 (UTC) The argument between "Total Bounty Known/ Total Known Bounty" and "At Least" is pure semantics, but I'd prefer at least for 3 reasons: #I think it is much more aesthetically pleasing and easier to comprehend. Total known bounty sounds odd and, might not be as easy to understand for non-native english speakers as "at least" is. Using "at least" we get the message across in the simplest way possible without speculating too much. #I'm just gonna give a couple of examples: "Hey how many people are coming tonight?" - "The total known number of guests so far is 5." / "At least 5 guests" ; "Pliny the younger wrote at least 5 novels" / "Pliny the younger wrote a total known number of 5 books"; "Can I you lend me 50 bucks?" - "Let me check, but I have at least 40 in my wallet" / "Let me check, but the total known amount of money in my wallet is 40$". I do realize this may be my personal preference, but I just think it looks a lot easier on the eye and on the ear. #I admit that using "at least" does have some speculative aspects, but "Total known bounty" does too, just in the other direction. It sounds very finite. "Total known bounty of $200.000.000" sounds like we know of more than 1 bounty, which we don't in most cases and it sounds too, I don't quite know how to put this, certain. Like there is only a small chance that the bounty might be higher, it removes almost all speculative aspects, thus speculating itself. " Bounty: At least $200.000.000" Leaves both possibilites, that the bounty may or may not be bigger, open. For me, at least implies that, at our current knowledge, the bounty is $200.000.000, it may or may not be bigger, whereas "total known bounty" implies much more heavily that the bounty is in fact, not bigger. I hope I've made myself at least somewhat clear XD Pandawarrior 10:43, March 9, 2011 (UTC) Thanks a lot for your examples Panda, exactly what I was talking about in the other thread - sure it both means the same, but the wording is highly suggestive. That is why I would use this symbol: '≤''' It is clean and sterile and has the same meaning as "at least". But if that option isn't considered, I would go for total known bounty. 11:43, March 9, 2011 (UTC) @Jinbe: Well, the reason why the at least sign was not considered is because some people may not understand at first glance. You know, we may even have little kids looking at these sites. @Pandawarrior: I don't know, is it just me that thinks Total Known Bounty sounds more formal? I mean think, even the Straw Hats have an unclear bounty. And we pretty much know that Franky probably got a new bounty, so we have to take that into consideration too. See what I'm getting at? 12:29, March 9, 2011 (UTC) @JOP: "we may even have little kids looking at these sites" is exactly what I was talking about. Little kids and non-native english speakers might not understand Total Known Bounty, because it is a very awkward, unneccesarily formal way to put it. The same goes for ≤. Pandawarrior 12:42, March 9, 2011 (UTC) I voted for using "at least" because it's what I prefer the most, but in my opinion the problem seems too big than what actually it is, because I also agree that the difference between "at least" and "known bounty" is basically a semantic discussion, moreover I don't really mind to not using both of them and uploading the bounty when new information came out (it's not misleading the reader), but being this wikia an "Encyclopedia of One Piece" it's true that using "at least/known bounty" is more accurate then don't using them. In the end I prefer "at least" because "known bounty" requires a new template other than the simple "bounty" (right?) so it's an unuseful complication and for this reason I'll accept whatever expression we (all) like to put in the field "bounty", like "at least", "min.", "≤"... By the way, there are two things I don't really understand in this discussion: * "Little kids and non-native english speakers might not understand Total Known Bounty, because it is a very awkward, unneccesarily formal way to put it." Why? I am a non-native English speaker myself, but the verb "to know" is pretty much a basic verb so why should one known the meaning of "at least" and not the meaning of "known"? (I'm only curious, I don't want to complain) * Regard using the symbol ≤, souldn't it be ≥? Because "Total bounty: ≤ 10.000.000" means that's the maximum bounty possible, instead "Total bounty: ≥ 10.000.000" means that's the minimum bounty possible. I have nothing against using symbols since I'm in the scientific field, you can use this for what I care: B={bounty(1), bounty(2),..., bounty(n)}; K={knownbounty(1), knownbounty(2),..., knownbounty(n)}; Total Bounty = ∑knowbounty(i) + x; x = ∑bounty(i) : bounty ∈ (B\K) [[User:Leviathan_89|''leviathan_89]] 16:50, March 9, 2011 (UTC) Well yeah, if you place it like that. How about 10.000.000 '≤''' :) 17:11, March 9, 2011 (UTC) :Ah ok, you mean that way. But technically you must put it before (between the two things you want to compare) because it's the "Total Bounty" (Actual bounty) ≥ (bigger or equal than) "10.000.000", after the bounty number it doesn't seem right: "Total Bounty (Actual bounty): (=) 10.000.000 ≤ (of what?)" [[User:Leviathan_89|''leviathan_89]] 17:31, March 9, 2011 (UTC) About the non-native english speaker thing, it's not about the simple vocabularly of "total" and "known" (hopefully they do know "bounty but if they don't then it's pointless anyway XD) It's about the implication of the phrase overall. To someone who doesn't speak english very well Total Known Bounty might come across as Total Bounty, which would lead them to believe that the Total Known Bounty is the overall bounty of the crew. "At least" is a lot easier to understand, as there's much less room for misinterpretation. Pandawarrior 17:03, March 9, 2011 (UTC) :Ah, I see. Thanx. [[User:Leviathan_89|leviathan_89]] 17:31, March 9, 2011 (UTC) Thsi reminds me of the Blackbeard boutny problem when he was a member. People kept writing " 0" as his amount, that was wrong because if you put a " " in it means they do have one, its just worth "0" amount. Its trying to explain to people the concept of "0", you think it can be easy but at times people don't get it. Saying "he has no bounty" and saying " 0" is not the same thing. One-Winged Hawk 17:44, March 9, 2011 (UTC) Wow the conversation progressed a lot since last time I visited! Well as for the non-native people; I don't know.. if the person doesn't understand Total Known Bounty (or Total Bounty Known) then will he/she understand the rest of the wikia? I think TBK is pretty basic. Also, little kids learn words before math symbols, plus my mom already forgot what < means! (XD) Anyhow, since we are starting to talk about the greater than equal to sign more, say right her if you vote for a re-vote round II to add it. This will end tomorrow. 12:51, March 10, 2011 (UTC) re-vote with < (Yes, No, or Neutral) *Neutral. 12:51, March 10, 2011 (UTC) *Considering every suggestion is nice from you, thanks! However, this really isn't worth it (it is a somewhat strange "problem" anyway...). I'm not mad if you remove this suggestion together with this comment. While I think the sign would be suitable, I really don't care enough and would prefer a solution instead of rerolling it -again- 13:07, March 10, 2011 (UTC) Haha okay, if you say so Jinbe. Well then, back to topic. I see how people are writing "Total Known Bounty" when voting, but does this have some significant meaning saying that is better than "Total Bounty Known"? I don't mind whichever it is, but I was just wondering if the wording is better that way or something. 16:32, March 10, 2011 (UTC) :"Total Known Bounty" is less awkward than "Total Bounty Known". Ask... any English teacher/professor/editor/writer/etc. if you disagree. Hey, it's been nearly a month, are we gonna do something about this? Yatanogarasu 04:54, April 2, 2011 (UTC) Isn't this already settled? 7 votes for "at least" vs 6 votes for "total know bounty". [[User:Leviathan_89|leviathan_89]] 11:32, April 5, 2011 (UTC) Well, One-Winged Hawk's vote is either way, if you look back at it. So, still hard to figure that out. Yatanogarasu 19:31, April 5, 2011 (UTC) :But she wrote ''"This least or a combination; "Total known bounty at least"." so it cannot count for the "Total Know Bounty" (only) option, because either way (at least/Total known bounty at least) she voted for "at least". Eventually we can also ask him to be more precise. [[User:Leviathan_89|''leviathan_89]] 19:05, April 7, 2011 (UTC) ::Come-on guys , just think over it : even if u use "Total Known Bounty" , U still gotta use the keyword "Atleast" [ Just think over it and u get it ] . I think using "at least" would be a better idea. I don't really see the point of writing "total known bounty" because the number being written is obviously going to be the total known one. While using "at least" is more speculative, it is also more informative. Here is the definition of the word: "According to the lowest possible assessment; not less than." Using at least is saying that this value is the minimum value, but it could possibly be higher. Using total known just tells what we know and gives no indication of a possibility of it being higher, lower, or exactly that. Before the timeskip, the Straw Hat Pirates page would have said either "Total Bounty: 700,000,050 Berries" or "Total Known Bounty: 700,000,050 Berries." The former option would be more favorable in this situation since saying "total known" implies that there might be more known when there are not. After the timeskip, the Straw Hat Pirates page would say either "Total Bounty: at least 840,000,050 Berries" or "Total Known Bounty: 840,000,050 Berries." The former option would be better in this situation too since it implies that the bounties of other crew members could have gone up over two years like it did with Zoro and Luffy, but on the other hand, the latter option doesn't say anything other than "This is what we know so far." Well, that's my opinion on the matter. GamingBuddha 07:34, April 9, 2011 (UTC) So based on One-Winged Hawk's vote, it's a combination of both, and the top two votes even out as a tie. We should go with "total known bounties at least". Yatanogarasu 09:18, April 9, 2011 (UTC) :Seriously? Let's wait for her to clarify her vote. And is there anyone who still hasn't voted yet? Or who wants to change his vote? Can someone do that? [[User:Leviathan_89|leviathan_89]] 10:32, April 9, 2011 (UTC) May I still vote, even though it's past the date? GamingBuddha 16:55, April 9, 2011 (UTC) Only users with at least 150 edits are allowed to vote. Sry, but them's the rules :-I Panda 17:09, April 9, 2011 (UTC) At least doesn't sound right, as I said before. It's borderline of speculation, so let's just put "known", which is a fact. Yatanogarasu 20:33, April 9, 2011 (UTC) I'm not against this concept or something: But why is the no. '''150' minimum for voting ? ... I'm sure my atleast first 200 edits were on blogs !........... I'm just asking , I mean no offence :-) :Ah, that sucks. But does anyone else think writing "total known" seems redundant? I think saying "at least" implies that the amount is the total that we know (or why else would we write that amount?) and simply states that there is a possibility that it is higher. It isn't speculation; it's simply stating that there might be more members on the crew that have not yet had their bounty revealed. GamingBuddha 02:40, April 11, 2011 (UTC)